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Post by gregggagliardi on Feb 28, 2013 18:34:15 GMT -8
Rope leaders are de facto guides (I know the lawyers are going to hate me for saying this). Rope leads need to regard the second (and others) in the same way that paid guides regard their clients. In this spirit I suggest that we teach intermediates techniques such as confidence roping, short roping, assisted raises as well as small party self rescue. "Freedom" is not the best place to present this. I suggest that we limit "Freedom" to what we teach in the Basic Climbing Course and then supplement it with a series of specialty books on more advanced technical subjects. Here is a new one: "Taking care of the second: a rope leader's guide to leading novice climbers." I would recommend that we farm this book out to someone at AMGA.
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 7, 2013 1:25:49 GMT -8
Good point. Good book idea. While I understand the philosophy behind claiming that leaders are not guides I believe that practical considerations often thrust them into the role. I think it makes a lot of sense to give climb leaders and rope leads more tools for dealing with some of these practical realities. This can be done in a way that enhances the egalitarian spirit of club climbing; a good leader strives for consensus, involves everyone in some degree of co-leadership, etc.
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Post by chrisdessert on Mar 7, 2013 8:30:17 GMT -8
One of the ways of staying out of a rescue situation is that any member should be prepared to assume any role in the team. So i'd be hesitant on approaches that would reduce the responsibility and expectations of any member of the rope team. There is the matter of finding out on the climb that one of your climbers skills are not up to standard and how to support them on the climb.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 7, 2013 12:06:41 GMT -8
Chris I agree with your main point but consider the following:
How many basic students or intermediate students could rescue an unconscious or at least seriously injured fallen leader with more than half of the climbing rope out?
Basic students learn to tie off a fallen leader, but what next? Hopefully there is another climbing team within shouting distance to help perform an actual rescue. Maybe not, in fact probably not a team that knows how to perform a fallen leader rescue.
We don't teach enough, or present enough in Freedom, on small party rescue. When I teach it the main point I make is that there is no meaningful distinction between climbing and rescue, except in the case free soloing where rescue = body recovery. Setting up for various rescue and follower assistance scenarios is as essential to climbing as building belay anchors and placing pro. In fact everything in the chain of protection --belayer, anchor,pro--is actually a setup for rescue. With the risk of being perceived as overly pedantic I might suggest that climbing protection systems and rescue systems are two sides of the same coin, safety.
Ideally we would climb with partners who know both sides of the coin, but that's a rarity unless you pick your climbing partners very carefully.
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 14, 2013 22:29:13 GMT -8
One thing that could be expanded on a bit, regarding taking care of the second, is the situation where a leader leads a stretch of down climbing. This often happens on ridge routes, like the North Ridge of Stuart. The leader has to place pro primarily to protect the follower from taking long falls whereas the leader is essentially on top-rope. This requires anticipation and consideration. The leader will need to place good pro just below any cruxes, but will need to consider that the follower may be likely to take the longest falls when they are cleaning pro. The leader may want to place pro to protect any particularly hard to clean pieces when leading a stretch of down climbing. Traversing involves similar considerations and is covered fairly well in FOTH as I recall.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 16, 2013 12:16:05 GMT -8
Good points. If the second is not an experienced or confident climber you may need to lower them to a spot where they can build an anchor to tie in. If only half the rope is out, the leader can build a rappel anchor and rap down to the second. If more than half the rope is out, then the leader will need to down climb placing one piece of pro climbing down, placing a second piece of pro, climbing up to clean the first piece, climbing down to the second piece, etc.
We could use a whole section if not a small chapter to cover matters like this
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Post by jasonmartin on Aug 3, 2013 8:58:29 GMT -8
Short-roping is no joke. Doing it well is extremely difficult for intermediate and even advanced level guides who do it all the time.
The AMGA begins to teach short-roping in the Rock Instructor Course. The prerequisites for this course are that the students should have at least 50 multi-pitch climbs under their belts, many of which should be Grade III or more, and that they should be solid 5.10a leaders.
The reason I bring up these prerequisites is because they exist in part to keep the guide safe. If an individual cannot move effectively and without a belay over third, fourth and short steps of low-fifth class terrain then they shouldn't be short-roping. The prerequisites help to identify those who can do this effectively.
Ineffective short-roping is extremely dangerous. If this is not taught properly to people who have the appropriate requisite movement skills, somebody could easily get killed...
Jason
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Post by gregggagliardi on Aug 5, 2013 13:56:09 GMT -8
Points well taken. Climb leaders are nevertheless going to need to make wise decisions about whether to "third class" 3rd, 4th and low 5th class terrain versus other alternatives such as simul climbing (also very risky) and roping up and protecting the pitch (if it is possible). As long as this requires a short amount of climbing, protecting the pitch is probably the safest way to go. But on some long climbs with a lot of scrambling and lower class climbing this could lead to other safety problems such as exposure to objective hazards such as rock fall, ice fall, avalanche and weather changes. Of course whether to attempt a climb at all with climbers of diverse abilities and experience is perhaps the biggest issue. I have been on enough basic and intermediate rock climbs to know that such decisions are not always good ones. And of course with the way that many Mountaineers' climbs are listed and planned one doesn't often find that out until on the climb. At least one very experienced climbing buddy of mine has suggested that the Mountaineers not list climbs (but allow club members to arrange them informally their own) or if they do list them, they not list them in a way that identifies anyone as a leader with more responsibility than the rest of the party..
Jason: As a personal side note, I am particularly happy that we have an AMGA guide commenting on Freedom 9 Best Practices. It only makes sense to encourage greater partnership between the AMGA and The Mountaineers. I hope other AMGA guides follow your example. I am indebted to several AMGA guides for what I have learned beyond the textbook.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Aug 6, 2013 10:46:36 GMT -8
Jason's comments prompted me to look further into short roping. I found a very informative paper on this topic that I need to share. It makes Jason's points very strongly. Indeed, it raises very serious concerns about anyone ever using short roping at all. Jason: Thanks for the heads up. Here is the paper. Well worth reading by all. amga.com/images/misc_PDFs/news/short_roping_3_09.pdfGregg
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