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Post by adamnelson on Mar 18, 2013 7:06:47 GMT -8
Is there a reason we do not practice team arrest in the basic class? Students will be travelling roped and it seems that this would be valuable practice.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 18, 2013 9:05:38 GMT -8
We do practice it in the Tacoma Basic class, but not enough, nor under conditions where it can fail (hard, steep snow). An important experience (lesson) for students after they have mastered the techniques is to experience failing to successfully arrest a fall. It is important for them to have some personal experience with the limitations of these techniques in a safe setting with a safe run out. That way they will climb more carefully.
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 24, 2013 21:30:09 GMT -8
A clear discussion of team arrest is an excellent idea, and should be somewhere in the neighborhood of the discussion of when to rope up, when team arrest is not enough without placing pro, and how a team works together when placing pro while simul-climbing. This topic currently is dealt within more detail in the Intermediate course, though it may be under-taught due to the many cancelations of the Winter Mountaineering Field Trip, where a lot of the snow climbing instruction takes place. I would suggest that it might be an idea to run a few snow-climbing instructional seminars in springtime. We spend a lot of time on steep snow slopes in the Cascades, but most of the time we are soloing or slogging across glaciers and seldom practice making anchors or belaying on snow except in the context of glacier rescue scenarios.
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Post by kensmall on May 1, 2013 18:53:47 GMT -8
If the lead climber falls, the second has, I think, about 3-10 seconds to react, depending on the separation and the speed of the falling climber. Here's an alternative to dropping into the arrest position. First jump to one side or the other if in the fall line of the falling climber (necessary even if one is going to drop into arrest), then jam the axe all the way into the snow, drop down into an arched position with the toes kicked in and pushing down and in (mostly in) on the head of the axe. This would surely fail, as anything would, on very steep, very hard snow, but in some conditions it might work when dropping into the arrest position would be just whiling away a little time waiting to be pulled off. I've always been surprised and appalled that the Mountaineers, with all its resources, does virtually nothing in the way of systematic field-testing of methods. Here is one place to start. I certainly would not advocate putting this alternative into Freedom without at least some extensive, if informal, testing.
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Post by nicklyle on May 17, 2013 16:06:41 GMT -8
Ken, In the scenario you describe I would caution that the "arched position" would not be a good idea if it results in the belayers rump being elevated. When the pull comes on the belayers harness in a fall like this the belayer needs to be fairly flat on the snow so that bones and body are in line with the pull force. If the belayers rump is up in the air leverage will make it very hard for the belayer to avoid being yanked off their stance. I have tested this repeatedly and observed it many times while teaching roped ice axe arrest. This is a crucial difference between self arrest and an impromptu ice ax belay. Nick Lyle
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Post by dougsanders on Jun 5, 2013 11:31:13 GMT -8
The Everett Basic student practices team ice arrests on both of their weekend snow outings. Typically, this is performed in a rope team of 3 on a steep slope. The lower 2 climbers, on instructor cue, pull on the highest climber, until the climber has aggressively assumed the proper arrest position and been drug a few feet (or until the attempt has failed.)
It may be practiced during roped team glissading depending upon instructor; it is not a sign-off.
The students assume the rope team arrest position during crevasse rescue practice; however, only the middle person bares the weight of the climber in the crevasse and that weight is slowly applied.
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