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Post by dougsanders on Jun 5, 2013 7:42:09 GMT -8
Everett teaches both the anchored sitting hip belay and ice ax-carabiner as snow belays. These use the SSS method. Is there a BUS version?
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Post by gregggagliardi on Jun 5, 2013 11:46:26 GMT -8
No BUS used for snow belays when taught as a hip belays. BUS could be used with a belay device for a belay on snow or ice. Few climbers use the hip belay for anything more than an impromptu belay for a follower. Hip belays are more dynamic if performed correctly by an experienced hip belayer as evident by the fact that many of the first climbs of El Capitan and other classic routes were done with only a hip belay. Belay with a device can also be dynamic if performed correctly. In my opinion belay with a device is easier and safer for beginners (basic) climbers. If conditions on a basic glacier climb require belaying the leader serious consideration should be given to either bailing or having a more experienced rope lead belay the leader past the technical section, then having that leader set up a secure top anchor to belay the rest of the team up that pitch. I would not trust a basic student to use a hip belay for belaying a leader on technical snow or ice.
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Post by dougsanders on Apr 10, 2014 10:40:17 GMT -8
Changing from SSS to BUS comes with a cost. How do we pay for that cost?
Competent Cascade mountaineers need to know how to perform, sitting and standing:
(1) Device belay (2) Munter belay (3) Hip belay
(Big wall, sport, gym and crag belay needs are not the same as Cascade mountaineering belay needs.)
These 3 belay techniques currently use SSS to take-in rope. New climbers learn a common core motion and add the arrest positions for each of the techniques. Any use of any SSS reinforces the hand movement for the other belays. This speeds learning and retards loss of perishable skills for the infrequently used Munter and Hip belays. For some unfortunate who has forgotten, and is trying to remember, the Munter or Hip belays they can start with the common SSS motion they use regularly.
We have many decades experience using the SSS for Basic and Intermediates in all venues. The learning curve is not long and once learned I am not aware of problems.
If the BUS replaced the SSS for device belays, then the new climber still has to learn the SSS for where the BUS cannot be used. This means becoming competent in 2 techniques rather than one. It increases the perishability of the Munter and Hip belay since no part of these techniques is common to BUS.
The Everett Branch Basic course teaches the 3 belays using SSS.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. A change to BUS comes with costs. How much extra time to demo, learn, and demonstrate (at class, outings (3), mid-term, and final?) How much time is required to assure the same level of Munter and Hip belay competency? Where does the time come from? Do we cut something from the Basic course or add time to the course?
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Post by jimnelson on Apr 13, 2014 20:00:14 GMT -8
I am not sure that BUS and SSS are all that different. Both bend the rope to create friction, and both want a hand always on the brake rope.
Once you understand the mechanism of the rope bends, you understand that hands out in front(SSS) when using most popular devices, is not a good belay. Hands in front is a good position for the hip belay, but not with most devices. Munter is a bit unique in that either position is good.
I am trying to think of good situations for using the hip belay? Belaying a second when there is no anchor available is one reason for sitting, but why not use a device? If I need to move rope quickly I use the munter device.
If I have an anchor, it's munter off the anchor for belaying a second. If I am belaying a leader, then it's munter or other device off my harness. If I am belaying a leader with no anchor, then I sit until the leader is able to place protection.
For snow belays I am more likely to be sitting, but prefer munter device from my harness over wrapping the rope around my waist (hip belay).
For Cascade mountaineering I have a hard time thinking of situations where I choose hip belay over using a device.
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Post by dougsanders on Apr 15, 2014 7:04:43 GMT -8
This Subject was introduced with strong BUS advocacy predominantly from a rock climbers perspective.
A take home from the April meeting was that the Forum represents input for the F9 chapter writers to consider. Given this, my post was intended to counterbalance the prior rock focus and look to broad belay use in the Cascades, as well as the impact of adding to, or replacing, SSS with BUS in the Basic Climbing Course.
I think BUS, SSS, Munter and Sitting Hip Belay would all pass a Cascade centric specification for arrest effectiveness. I don't think there is accident data to support or exclude any of them. While not the most popular in the rock world, the latter 3 have decades of world wide use.
Well, the most famous example where Sitting Hip Belay (rather than a device) should have been used can be found in Touching the Void. The bend, joining the 2 ropes together, could not be passed through the device whereas with the Sitting Hip Belay it would have been simple. This would apply to any rope where there is a knot isolating damage.
Everett Scrambles don't include roped climbing. Nonetheless, the students learn the diaper sling and klemheist; the leader carries a rope but not pro, device or harness. It is possible that actual route or psychological conditions might warrant a belay for a Scrambler. The Sitting Hip Belay could fulfill this need without routinely carrying a harness and device.
Similarly, the Sitting Hip Belay can be used where a rope is taken 'just in case' and avoid the extra weight and overkill of a rack and harnesses. Cathedral, the highest peak in the Pasayten, has one route with a short Class 4 section, all other routes being Class 5. All of the other peaks in the area have easier routes. With nearly a 25 mi. approach several pounds can be left behind by using the Sitting Hip Belay should one be needed. Crossing the Whitehorse moat and/or descending it's summit block is another example where a simple short belay maybe necessary for some climbers.
Everett introduces the Sitting Hip Belay as a snow belay. It is quicker than a device to set up if the rope is swollen with water, the rope is frozen, or hands are cold.
The Sitting Hip Belay allows rope to pay out quicker with less effort and drag than through a device. It has the longest 'stroke length' of any belay meaning more rope can be taken in faster. Belaying a rope team onto and off of a glacier are examples where I tend to use it; the team is moving at a walking pace and the belayer can keep up. Where technical rock is followed by easy terrain I prefer it to keep up with the fast moving follower. I use it where there is good foot bracing but no pro options (grassy bench;) and, where the angle has eased off such as at a blocky summit.
I probably consider the Sitting Hip Belay, rather than a device, more often since it was my first belay technique and probably imprinted.
I note, that you, too, situationally switch from one technique to another, something I don't believe most intermediates even think about doing until they have several seasons behind them. The Everett Basic learns device, Munter and Sitting Hip Belay, a start in this direction.
With respect to belaying directly off, or redirected off, an anchor in the Cascades, that will be another Subject for me. “Resurgence of the Munter Belay” will be another subject, too.
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Post by jimnelson on Apr 15, 2014 8:24:22 GMT -8
Doug,
What to teach at the courses is different than what to have in Freedom. How to present each of the belay methods is one thing to work out, and I hope the writers/editors find the discussion helpful.
I feel like the SSS is appropriate for the hip belay, and BUS for a device.
You give some good examples for choosing the hip belay. Some of those situations I may choose the Munter, but believe there is room for more than one way.
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