|
Post by gregggagliardi on Feb 28, 2013 14:26:43 GMT -8
Today, the BUS technique is the accepted practice for belaying off the harness with a device. In fact the traditional SSS technique taught in Freedom is banned in some venues. The remaining use for that technique is with body belays, either around the waist or over the shoulder, in a carabiner ice-axe belay, stomper belay or shoulder belay. There are not many occasions in which I would trust a basic student to use a body belay. Perhaps it would be simpler to teach them one belay technique; they can learn the others (Munter and body belays) later as intermediate climbers.
Gregg J. Gagliardi
|
|
|
Post by jimnelson on Feb 28, 2013 15:44:51 GMT -8
"Perhaps it would be simpler to teach them one belay technique; they can learn the others (Munter and body belays) later as intermediate climbers."
I think this makes a lot of sense.
Q. Any reason the munter can't be used with the BUS belay?
|
|
|
Post by geneyore on Feb 28, 2013 16:29:24 GMT -8
Help me out here. BUS? SSS?
|
|
|
Post by gregggagliardi on Feb 28, 2013 17:52:12 GMT -8
Gene: See
Jim: The strongest position for braking on the Munter is forward, with the brake hand strand parallel to the climber's end of the rope. The BUS method could be used with the Munter but it would be a bit weaker (probably not significantly so). Tacoma has taught braking the Munter belay off the harness to the side of the body so as not to confuse students.
|
|
|
Post by loniuchytil on Mar 6, 2013 22:23:13 GMT -8
The BUS system is what I teach the Crag students as it is the industry standard these days and I have seen to many climbers dropped with new belayers using the SSS system. (Gene the BUS system is the system used to belay were the hand always stays in an overhand position below the belay device and is always in a braking position--very safe. The SSS system is the practice of bringing the right hand up above the belay device in an underhand position, pinching the rope with the left hand and sliding the right hand down into a braking position.) When using the SSS system the new belayer is in a very vulnerable position when both hands are in the up position especially if the lead climber decides to take a big fall just at that moment. I just witnessed a belayer drop their lead climber at the gym from about 30 feet a few weeks ago for that very reason. I think the Munter is a good thing to teach as a back up in case something happens to the belay device unless we start expecting them to always carry a back up
|
|
|
Post by nicklyle on Mar 7, 2013 0:20:25 GMT -8
The BUS system looks awkward in the video, slow for taking in big slack, tough to manage in a sitting posture as well. Dropping the leader is bad though . . . What does "industry standard" refer to exactly? Climbing gyms?
|
|
|
Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 9, 2013 14:58:43 GMT -8
The BUS is preferred mainly due to safety considerations. The belayer can more rapidly lock off. The video shows a standing technique that is popular in gyms and sport climbing areas. It works well for standing belays in alpine climbs too. The technique also works with a lock off to the side when sitting down. The side lock off technique is popular in the UK and can be found in some of their instruction books. The BUS can also be used to belay using a Munter hitch in either the front lock off (demonstrated in Freedom) or using a side lock which though a bit weaker is till plenty strong.
The best way to appreciate ithe BUS is to try it out. It is far easier to learn the SSS, which is another good reason to recomend it.
|
|
|
Post by loniuchytil on Mar 29, 2013 10:38:01 GMT -8
What I meant by "industry standards" is that BUS is the technique of choice being taught by the AMGA climbing instructors and in Gyms that I am aware of. It is also widely used in Europe. As any new technique it takes a little to adjust to but taking in slack is not difficult at all you just need to stay up with the climber more diligently and not let a lot of slack develop in the rope. This is a good idea anyway??
|
|
|
Post by geneyore on Apr 15, 2013 8:07:58 GMT -8
I need to practice.
|
|
|
Post by markholmes on Apr 16, 2013 14:22:49 GMT -8
Stone Gardens used to teach Slip Stich Pass, with a lock-off when the climber is not moving.
Slip Stich Pass, is essentially (for a right handed belayer): - Right hand on the brake rope, above the belay device, thumb up - Left hand on the lead rope - as you pull in rope the brake hand goes up, the left hand then pinches the belay rope ABOVE the brake hand, so you can slip your brake hand down without letting go of the rope.
There are two things some don't like about this. 1. The position your brake hand is in (thumb up above the belay device) some find awkward to lock off, turning their hand out. For those users, advantage BUS. I personally don't find it awkward. 2. Novice users of this method often make the mistake of taking in as much rope as they can, brake hand and arm are fully extended making it hard for them to get their non-belay hand above to pinch the rope. The pinch the rope above their belay hand, requiring them to briefly let go of the belay rope when they pass their belay hand down the rope back toward the belay device. They often don't know that they're doing it, or don't know how to correct it. In my experience, if you can identify the problem (reaching too far up with the belay hand and then pinching the rope below...) they quickly understand and make the adjustment.
I prefer SSS for myself, but others on here likely have more experience with teaching either method to beginners than I.
|
|
|
Post by nicklyle on Apr 17, 2013 15:42:46 GMT -8
Slip stitch pass was the way I was taught (after starting with body belays years ago). This weekend I tried to stick to the BUS technique. It wasn't too bad. If you set up your anchors with a good stance in mind you can bring rope in pretty quick.
|
|
|
Post by ebellataschoenleitner on Apr 23, 2013 3:26:58 GMT -8
I can attest to the fact that the SSS method is not liked in many areas. In Europe I'm getting "corrected" pretty much every time even going to a climbing gym. I personally still prefer SSS, but I agree with the cons listed.
|
|
|
Post by jimnelson on Apr 27, 2013 7:46:54 GMT -8
One thing to keep in mind when learning a new method, is the adjustment period. This is true for many things.
As someone who learned the SSS Belay method a long time ago, it is so natural for me. When I first tried the BUS it was awkward for me. Now the SSS is awkward.
|
|
|
Post by kensmall on Apr 29, 2013 18:31:54 GMT -8
The slip stich pass appears, from the descriptions, to be the same as the SSS, which I learned 40-odd years ago. A qualification: although thumb up (equivalently, palm up) is the normal, natural way to do this, it need not be part of the definition. You can keep palm down and use the same hand motions, though it gets you in the shoulder if you do it a lot. When leading and my belayer uses the SSS, I insist that they hold the rope palm down. There is then no difference with the BUS, since they are paying out the rope, EXCEPT when the climber takes a few moves up (e.g., to place a piece high), then moves down to rest so the belayer has to take in some rope. The BUS may then be marginally better; I suspect the difference in risk is trivial. As for using the BUS when belaying from above, it is awkward and slow; I personally would never consider it. As for what goes into Freedom, I prefer to see all methods in current use described, with the pros and cons of each in different situations clearly discussed without any strong recommendations. I wouldn't like to see a return to the obnoxious didacticism for which Freedom has been known and which it has very slowly been getting away from since the 4th edition.
|
|
|
Post by jasonmartin on May 19, 2013 6:42:51 GMT -8
Currently, all AMGA Instructor level courses - Single Pitch Instructor, Climbing Wall Instructor, and Rock Instructor - are teaching the BUS or PBUS style.
At the American Alpine Institute, we teach our students this style first and then introduce other styles after they have mastery.
Jason
|
|