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Post by gregggagliardi on Feb 28, 2013 18:03:14 GMT -8
The preferred method of glacier travel under most ordinary circumstances is travelling in coils, thus shortening the distance between climbers. There are several advantages: communication is improved; travel is better organized and more efficient on a shorter rope; coiled rope is readily available for other purposes such as crevasse rescue.
The modified Kiwi coil is an okay technique but there is a better one taught by the Scottish Mountaineering Council. It is easier to tie it safely; it serves as a good chest harness and it makes setting up the first anchor in a crevasse rescue easier and quicker. This is especially true for 2-person rope teams. Below is a link to a video that demonstrates the technique.
We have lots to learn from climbers from outside the USA. It would be nice to invite them to this forum.
Gregg
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Post by jimnelson on Mar 1, 2013 8:30:53 GMT -8
Gregg,
I'm all for recognizing the reasons for shortening the distance between climbers, but can you give me a clarification for "traveling in coils". I don't think you mean holding coils in the hand?
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 4, 2013 17:06:17 GMT -8
Correct. Perhaps I should have said "taking coils". The link goes to a really good video on a modification of the Kiwi coil technique. It has several advantages: (1) this coil serves as a chest harness (2) the attachment point to the rope exerts force near to the carrier's center of gravity (3) the double carabiner clip attachment to the autoblock allows a very fast attachment to the initial anchor in crevasse rescue (4) this method is a good one for travelling in teams of two and for executing crevasse rescue for 2-person teams.
The more teaching that I do with basics and intermediates the more I am impressed with the importance of teaching basic students methods that transfer directly to techniques taught in the intermediate course. This technique for coils could be taught to basic students. It would then prepare them for learning two person crevasse rescue when they enroll in the intermediate course.
In the meantime, basics would learn how to travel more efficiently on glaciers. I can't tell you how many times I have seen 3 person rope teams stretched across an entire 60 meter rope.
Gregg
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 7, 2013 1:09:34 GMT -8
The Scottish coil video has some good ideas in it, but I have been told that it is a bad idea to clip into the loop of a figure eight tie-in knot. Supposedly this knot can roll over if subjected to a three way pull on the loop. I haven't tested this. I am also a bit put off by the chain of carabiners introduced into the load bearing system. This tie in seems a tad complicated and subject to a lot of fine tuning and adjustments. I do like the use of the auto block friction knot; it is important to make sure falls are caught with the harness, not the chest loops.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 11, 2013 11:07:50 GMT -8
I am not aware of any test of the strength of the tie in knot when a carabiner is connected to the loop in the tie in knot. It would be good to have this info. I think that the technique would work fine if the belay loop was clipped instead.
The clipping of two carabiners together, though at first seeming unsafe, is actually one of the strengths of the technique. This is best understood in the context of holding a crevasse fall and setting up the first anchor for crevasse rescue. It works particularly well for two person teams (which by the way I am not advocating).
After arresting the crevasse fall, the arrestor digs in and places an anchor (ice axe, picket, ice screw, depending on conditions and gear). In step 2, the arrestor clips a runner from that first anchor to the locking carabiner holding the autoblock on the rope. S/he then transfers the weight onto the anchor by slowly and carefully sliding down a foot or two. At this point s/he may now easily unclip the non-locker from the locker, escape the system, secure the anchor by standing or sitting on it while setting up the second (main) anchor. From here the method follows what we teach for the remainder of the crevasse rescue procedure.
For 3 climbers on the rope, the middle climber has the additional back-up protection of the end climber (still in arrest position) while setting up anchor number 1. Also once the first anchor is set-up and tested, the middle climber while protecting the first anchor can belay the end climber to the anchor and the end climber can build the second anchor and set-up the remainder of the system. Note: between the middle climber and the end climber there will be plenty of rope because the team is traveling on coils, probably enough for a simple assisted pull (C-system over a padded lip) or a more complex system (Z system; C system; ZxC system, Double Mariners' system, etc.). Its nice to have enough rope to consider all the choices.
Now, one might ask, why reinvent the wheel by introducing yet another crevasse rescue system. Here is why: You can use the same method for pretty much all glacier travel and crevasse rescue situations (2-person teams; 3 person teams etc). It is also quick to set up the initial anchor and free the middle person for other duties, like belaying the end person down to the anchor (arguably the safest way to get the end person there). Finally it helps assure that there will be enough rope to avoid the rope stuck in the lip of the crevasse.
If basic students learn to do it this way, they will be able to easily learn the 2-person method taught in the intermediate climbing program.
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 14, 2013 22:15:53 GMT -8
I can see that it is easy to unclip from this setup. That's why I wonder how secure it is.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 16, 2013 12:07:45 GMT -8
You could clip the locker attached to the friction hitch with another locker to your belay loop to make it more secure. It would make unclipping later only a tiny bit harder
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Post by dougsanders on Aug 4, 2013 7:45:59 GMT -8
Does anyone use this method to shorten the rope for glacier travel in non-technical terrain?
Place excess rope in stuff sack; place stuff sack in pack such that it can dispense rope (if pulled); tie butterfly under top pack lid/flap (to restrict rope from dispensing too easily); and tie-in with butterfly.
If additional rope is required one pulls out the amount of rope needed (without removing the pack) and ties-in at new location then removes original butterfly tie-in.
Advantages: No coils around neck/pack which allows easier clothing adjustments and fewer encumbrances to movement/travel; has only one tie-in to harness; doesn't require proper loop sizing; does not twist the rope; and, is very quick to dispense extra rope. A climber can remain in ice-axe arrest while someone else takes the extra rope. The stuff sack is the best way to stow the excess rope; however, it can be butterfly-ed and stuffed into the pack with the loss of simple pulling out to dispense (pack needs to be removed.)
Disadvantage: Requires having pack off to set-up. When taking a break the climber is tethered to pack. May need to be combined with Kiwi coil to shorten the rope if one cannot take off pack.
Have used this for years; just find it easier.
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Post by jasonmartin on Aug 6, 2013 10:19:09 GMT -8
The Scottish coil video has some good ideas in it, but I have been told that it is a bad idea to clip into the loop of a figure eight tie-in knot. Supposedly this knot can roll over if subjected to a three way pull on the loop. I haven't tested this. I am also a bit put off by the chain of carabiners introduced into the load bearing system. This tie in seems a tad complicated and subject to a lot of fine tuning and adjustments. I do like the use of the auto block friction knot; it is important to make sure falls are caught with the harness, not the chest loops. The concern with this is the backside of the loop when you have a Yosemite Finish that is not correctly done. Here's a blog on the figure-eight that deals with the Yosemite Finish: alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2008/11/figure-eight-follow-through.htmlAs far as enchaining carabiners, the fear isn't that the carabiners are going to break, it's that they'll unclip themselves if twisted. Guides enchain carabiners in loaded systems all the time... I seldom use Kiwi coils on a glacier, unless it's a quick crossing to get to a technical line. A mountaineers coil is easier to use for long days out on a glacier and you can stow it in your pack. I occasionally stack rope in my pack so that I can pull it out and change distances without taking my pack off or messing with a coil... Jason
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