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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 8, 2013 13:05:32 GMT -8
Remove the boot axe belay. It's insecure, weak, complicated to operate and there are better ways to belay a follower on snow.
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Post by jimnelson on Mar 8, 2013 15:13:46 GMT -8
I feel like the Boot Axe Belay is valid given the right context. Is it not a reasonable quick belay given the right snow conditions and position of stance, and direction of load? Better to education people about the limits of boot axe belay maybe?
I agree the version from the harness, and re-directed to the axe with the sling you stand on is much better for most situations.
Does someone have a good name for the boot axe w/sling? We need a good descriptive name for this much improved version of this boot axe belay.
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Post by geneyore on Mar 10, 2013 21:40:43 GMT -8
I need help, more detail or logic.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 12, 2013 14:46:26 GMT -8
The carabiner ice axe belay (or carabiner ice screw belay when the surface is frozen), both covered in Freedom 8, are better alternatives to the boot axe belay. There is also a shoulder belay that is useful when the belayer is on safe flat spot like a ridge top. Another snow belay to consider is the butt axe belay, which appears well suited for steeper terrain. See: alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2011/06/snow-climbing-techniques-butt-axe-belay.htmlNone of these techniques is strong enough to prevent anything but a follower's small slip or fall; i.e. none of them are safe enough to belay a leader on snow The main problems with the boot axe belay: 1. It is weak (Connally reports that it can hold no more than 2 to 2.5 Kn of force) 2. Although quick to set-up it is awkward to pull in slack 3. The stance is uncomfortable and potentially unstable. 4. Anything that you can do with a boot axe belay you can do with a carabiner ice axe belay and you have the choice of using a body belay or a belay device
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Post by jimnelson on Mar 13, 2013 17:08:53 GMT -8
All good points about limits of the Boot Axe Belay.
Count me as another fan of the "sitting in the snow belay".
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 14, 2013 23:33:32 GMT -8
The boot axe belay is not only weak and awkward, it is hard to teach and hard to remember. Because it requires experience and finesse to use I would suggest that the Boot ax belay is an advanced technique, not for beginners, and can be dropped from FOTH to create room for some other information.
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Post by jimnelson on Mar 15, 2013 7:48:48 GMT -8
Agree that it is an advanced technique, and not a good choice for a basic curriculum,
Not sure if it should be in Freedom or not? I lean towards yes for now.
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 16, 2013 9:43:31 GMT -8
An argument for leaving a clear illustration of the Boot Ax belay in the text might be that people might want to be reminded how to do it right.
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Post by kensmall on May 3, 2013 11:36:10 GMT -8
Under a wide range of snow conditions, the boot-axe belay can be used to give a series of quick belays to a climber with an upper body injury (hand injury, dislocated shoulder) that rules out the use of self-arrest if they fall. In five-years worth of hard snow field trips in late June it has proved reliable except in relatively soft snow when using a 55-60cm axe. And it can be done when the party has no equipment except a rope, not a terribly rare circumstance. It should be kept.
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Post by steveglenn on Aug 1, 2013 9:12:03 GMT -8
The boot-ax belay has never worked well for me: as a belayer, it leaves me in an unstable position, and I rarely feel good about using it. Rope management is difficult for me with this technique. Most importantly, I would never want to be belayed with this technique. I have had consistent success over the years with the "boot ax with sling" technique mentioned by Jim Nelson. I think I have seen it in the literature as a "Standing Carabiner Ax Belay" which I can apply just as quickly as a boot-ax, it is more stable, it is slightly dynamic, and for me, it is more fool-proof. The only disadvantage is the acronym. Could someone come up with a better name?
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Post by gregggagliardi on Aug 1, 2013 10:55:15 GMT -8
The Carabiner Ice Axe Belay is also commonly known as the Stomper Belay. ;>)
The Butt Axe Belay is an even better one for steeper snow (more secure, lower center of gravity, rope runs more parallel to the surface of the terrain, you can kick foot holds from the sitting position to strengthen it further).
Stomp out a small snow platform. Clove hitch your axe to about a meter of rope from your harness. Drive the axe into the platform. Turn around facing the belayer, sit on the axe head (small sit pad recommended). A loop forms between your legs. This loop now becomes a new belay loop. Clip a locking HMS biner to the loop, haul in any slack left in the rope to the belayer, set-up a Munter belay on the HMS biner (or use your device). I think that you will find this technique to be comfortable, surprisingly secure and pretty quick to set-up.
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Post by jasonmartin on Aug 2, 2013 10:05:00 GMT -8
The Butt Axe is super strong. You can hold a 200lb follower who takes a hard fall and you barely feel it. The stomper belay is a little bit weaker than the butt axe and you really need to be on a low angle stance for it to work. But it's still very strong. Unfortunately, you cannot belay a leader with either of these... At AAI we long ago took the boot-axe belay out of our curriculum. It's an absolutely terrible technique, and it's also easy to do wrong. Most people place their hands on the rope incorrectly for the belay...this is especially common because of the fact that those who do use this technique, use it quite sparingly and forget the idiosyncrasies of it. Jason
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