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Post by adamnelson on Mar 17, 2013 20:21:35 GMT -8
I would like to see the Carabiner brake method removed from Freedom 9. The munter rappel is a safe and effective form of backup rappel that requires NO extra gear thus is a more likely choice if the belay device is dropped. Additionally oval are no uncommon to have on the harness
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Post by geneyore on Mar 24, 2013 1:59:08 GMT -8
At Seattle Branch meeting this week a second Munter rappel failure in 3 years was discussed. The investigation is still underway. This is being taken very serious. I believe that many if not most climbers feel that the carabiner break is obsolete and should be removed from Freedom 9. Is the Munter the right back rappel approach? Alternatives? Is a Munter rappel a Basic or Intermediate method? Etc?
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 24, 2013 17:57:17 GMT -8
Are these failures from a mis-tied knot? The Carabiner brake can be expanded for more friction in a rescue-lowering situation. I think this makes it a still-useful skill, certainly for intermediates. Nick
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Post by nickhunt on Mar 26, 2013 7:47:35 GMT -8
At Seattle Branch meeting this week a second Munter rappel failure in 3 years was discussed. The investigation is still underway. This is being taken very serious. I believe that many if not most climbers feel that the carabiner break is obsolete and should be removed from Freedom 9. Is the Munter the right back rappel approach? Alternatives? Is a Munter rappel a Basic or Intermediate method? Etc? I would definitely be interested in hearing more about this incident. In particular, what failed? The knot itself, or poor technique? I've always felt the Munter was a completely reasonable and (usually) straightforward technique to teach new climbers. It uses a hitch they already should know, and it doesn't require any additional gear, making it the perfect solution to cold fingers dropping a rappel device. I definitely don't think the Munter rappel is an Intermediate method and shouldn't be treated as such. And I'm also just curious, what other rappel methods are commonly used today? It seems like device rappels and Munter rappels are the only ones I see in the wild. What other (modern) alternatives exist? And, of course, I agree that the carabiner brake should be dropped... -Nick #2
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 26, 2013 11:32:55 GMT -8
If a basic student dropped/lost their belay device I would be inclined to lower them rather than trust their ability to safely rappel on a Munter. The problem is not that it is a difficult technique, it is that it is so infrequently practiced and used that it is prone to error and awkward, incorrect application. I am not even sure that I would necessarily trust an intermediate student to rappel on a Munter. If performed correctly (and much of the time it is not) it is quite safe, fairly easy and it does not twist the ropes. If performed incorrectly, especially on two strands of rope, it is a frustrating mess, probably never to be repeated.
The trick is to hold the braking section of the rope and hand up and parallel to the rope near the guiding hand. This version of the technique, along with lots of other good techniques, is taught by Alan Jolley in his DVD "Guide Tricks for Climbers".
How did the injured climber set up the rappel (correctness of the hitch, size of the HMS biner) and perform the rappel (braking up or braking down to the side)?
Finally, I agree that the carabiner brake method is best dropped, or reserved for teaching rescue methods.
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Post by jimnelson on Mar 26, 2013 13:12:13 GMT -8
Regarding the incident that Gene refers: Maybe more of a mishap or close call since there was no actual accident or injury. This Basic student may have managed to unclip their munter, possibly on a low angled section of the rappel. The student also may have been struggling to feed rope, and was using an auto-block.
This incident indicates to me that the munter rappel may be to advanced to teach to new climbers with volunteer instructors. Our methods need to be fairly fool-proof for the lower level studentss, much more so that for the more advanced and committed students.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 26, 2013 15:37:40 GMT -8
Attaching an autoblock on a Munter rappel could really foul things up especially if braking down and to the side. This kind of rappel creates enormous friction on a typical rappel on two strands of rope and lots of twisting if the brake hand is not in the correct position holding the brake strand parallel to the rope above the rappeler.
I think it best to teach it correctly or not at all. As one guide once put it, the only thing quicker to getting a climber down than lowering is jumping off the cliff.
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Post by kensmall on May 1, 2013 18:31:39 GMT -8
I am not in favor of dropping the carabiner brake system. It does not require ovals. I've rappelled many times using Ds and slant Ds. It won't work on ropes of about 10.2mm and above using the smaller wire-date 'biners and some other very small 'biners, but there are few other limitations. There are still people who use it. Once mastered it can be very fast and efficient. E.g., the transition from one rappel to the next can take as little as 15 seconds. I think Freedom should be, among other things, a compendium of techniques either in widespread use in the climbing world or widely believed to be techniques that one should have in one's toolkit, even if not regularly used.
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Post by jimnelson on May 2, 2013 9:58:27 GMT -8
I agree with Ken we should have it in Freedom.
If or where to include it in the mountaineer courses is a separate question we can explore here in the new category 10. Mountaineers Basic & Intermediate Curriculum.
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Post by Tony Tsuboi on Feb 6, 2014 12:02:21 GMT -8
Ultimately, I think we are forcing ourselves to adhere to a minimum standard that is not practical, rarely practiced, and probably will not get used. I think most would agree, as a climb leader, we would likely hand off our belay device to the student and use an alternate method ourselves rather than force a student try to recall proper setup of this rarely used technique. We could solve this problem by having the climb leader and rope leads carry a spare device. Also, why not simply lower as Greg mentioned? I think our minimum standards are due for a revision.
Actually, this perception is part of the problem. There are four possible configurations of the Munter Hitch on rappel. Two of these can unscrew the gate if the rope were to come into contact with the gate, and only one prevents that as well as eliminates the potential for the rope to contact the gate. These are subtle nuances, and it is important for any learning this technique to also understand the improper setups and to know why those should be avoided. For this reason, I would consider this an advanced technique not suitable for Basic curricula.
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