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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 25, 2013 15:26:25 GMT -8
If Freedom 9 was to become an ebook, how would it differ from, or relate to, the hard copy version of the book? I am assuming that embedded links to other sources (videos, other ebooks, etc.) would occur throughout the digital text, allowing the reader to jump to other sources/sites for additional information. Would there be corresponding links in the hard copy version of the book? How would the ebook link to other Mountaineers' books; i.e., would there be a plan to offer ebook versions of other Mountaineers' books as well? Could a person download and purchase just a specific chapter without buying the whole book? Would these chapters be periodically updated on their own schedules, or revised as a group every few years like we do it now? Would there be an accompanying magazine (s) dedicated to specialty areas (say ice climbing) to which readers could subscribe? Would we sell climbing/outdoor related advertising? Would some types of access to the book be free?
It seems to me that many of the problems raised in past emails (e.g. payment, copyright, etc.) have probably already been solved to some extent by others; e.g., iTunes. The more choices that we give consumers to meet their needs, as a large or as small as they might be, the better. Could advertising serve as a source of future income for the Mountaineers? Perhaps we could use a consultant on matters like this. These are exciting times.
I like the idea of an ebook. It seems like the most versatile, forward looking approach.
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Post by nickhunt on Mar 26, 2013 8:26:36 GMT -8
I want to nitpick a little with terminology, mostly just to make sure I understand the discussion. I think colloquially at least, "ebook" referes to a digital copy of a paper book: a PDF, for example, reproducing the contents exactly. I think what we are talking about here is (I don't know the best word to use) an online edition of the book, accessible through a web browser. Is this correct? There are a number of super nice things about an online edition. You've already mentioned the ability to link to other online resources, books, etc. throughout the text, referencing more advanced material as necessary. The online format would also lend itself very nicely to the multimedia approach that has been discussed on the other threads in this forum. Being able to place videos inline with the text would help visual learners understand the material better, and would also address any ambiguities in the text. The super cool thing about an online edition is the ease of revising the text. By being a "live" body of work, clarifications, additions, removals, etc. can all be added and made available as soon as they are ready. I do not want to advocate a Wiki-style approach, however; any changes made to the actual work should still be vetted by the climbing committee. However, once the changes are verified, it makes it much easier to get those changes out to the readership. This will help FOTH remain up-to-date with best practices. Regarding the relationship to the hardcopy book, I think a "milestone" style system should be used. At the beginning, the online and book editions are identical in content; as revisions are proposed and vetted, they can be made to the online edition of the book. Once the two editions have diverged significantly, a new version of the print book could be made from the content of the online edition, taking a "snapshot" of the material. Of course, it won't be this straightforward with the multimedia material. One option would be to publish a supplemental FOTH DVD that readers could opt to buy if they were so inclined, containing the instructional videos that the online readers can see. The hard part of this, in my opinion, is still the payment. If someone wanted just access to the online version of the book, how do we manage that? Subscription style? Pay for 1-year subscription to the content? Perhaps the hardcopy books could come with a limited subscription to the website as well, so they can also benefit from any updates to the text. I don't like the idea of an ad-supported version, and I don't like the idea of a free version. Mostly because I'm just that way, but I also think the online version needs to be clean and professional-looking. Nothing takes away from that better than loud, flashing ads sprinkled throughout the page. This online version would also help us with deciding which parts of the text are important to the readers, and which aren't. Passive statistics could collect information such as how many times a page or chapter is viewed, videos watched, etc. Active statistics like the "Like/dislike" paradigm on chapters and sections could give explicit feedback. This might help tailor the content in the future editions (although our sample would be biased towards the technologically-inclined readers). Anyway, sorry for the rant! Nick
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 26, 2013 11:56:25 GMT -8
Nick, All good points and questions that need to be resolved.
1. Book ? 2. Book + instructive DVD? 3. Book + digital book with embedded links? 4. Book + Core digital book with links to specialty digital books (all with embedded links)? 5. #4 plus subscription(s) to one or more "eZines"? 6. Advertising versus limited advertising versus no advertising? 7. Single chapter purchase?
Things are changing fast with information technology. The boundaries between books and videos are blurring. Even movies are being designed with alternate endings or allowing interactive input from the participant. Not only is art imitating life but video games are imitating both. I can imagine a day when learning to climb will be assisted by an online climb simulator, complete with an avatar that is faced with challenges, obstacles, decisions and outcomes matched to the students experience and skill as assessed from past performance. Someone will figure out how to integrate this with an actual climbing wall so that the physical aspects of the performance figure into the game.
Where should we be now in this evolutionary process? I think that is the biggest question.
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 26, 2013 22:52:54 GMT -8
I think we ought to start with the print edition and create multi media supplements for it that add depth and detail where film, or interactive stuff can do a good job. These supplements could be embedded in the text of an online edition, or they could be provided within an app. I think apps are the most interesting way to package and sell this kind of multimedia publication at this time. As an example, consider the app versions of Sibley's field guide to the birds of North America. It is a fairly simple example of what can be done, but is well worth the $20 or so I paid for it. It is considerably more powerful and useful than the printed guide, yet it contains all pf the same text and illustrations of the printed version, but the few key aditions that the app version allows add tremendous value: you can play recordings of the bird songs in the field, you can search the field guide through several different filters, you can compare any two species side by side on the page, and so forth and so on. Unlike a web site, an app can be downloaded to your tablet, phone or other device, and can be used without being online, at the same time it can be regularly updated. Apps can have multimedia functionality, with video, audio, interactive animations, or whatever, embedded in the text. They can include links to sites on the Internet. They have the concrete sale-ability of an e-book, but the power and flexibility of a web-based publication. I find the ease of searching for information in the text format very useful, but illustrations can open like windows giving access to all of the immediacy and depth of video or animations. Major magazines and news journals are now starting to use apps as the primary means of digital publishing. Field guides are going this route as well. I feel sure that text books in most fields will go this route too. At present publications like The Economist and The New Yorker are providing the app version for free to people who subscribe to the print version of their periodical. You may also be able to subscribe to the magazine for a lower cost and just get the digital app version, which allows you to download a digital publication that includes multimedia and other elements not available in the print version. Over time these digital extras will continue to evolve and expand as new software and creative experiments expand the possibilities. Books such as field guides are often sold as apps through companies like apple or google, rather than as epubs sold through traditional publishers.
This is the right way to proceed. Start with the print nucleus and add creative and powerful multi media enhancements, available through an app, which will eventually grow into a whole new kind of publication. I imagine this will become a hybrid of text and video and interactive elements in which all these various parts will each do what they do best in a glorious synergy.
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 27, 2013 7:29:50 GMT -8
Read this in today's NY Times: www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/business/in-a-copyright-ruling-the-lingering-legacy-of-the-betamax.html?_r=0This ruling will have serious consequences. In the short term it will push publishing into apps. In the longer term I believe the way to keep published material ahead of the cheap copy market will be to make it more like a journal or subscription; so that the material is continually added to, updated, improved and refreshed such that the publisher's material will be more desirable than the used copies and knockoffs that will be competing with the publisher's product. In the shorter term it will behoove publishers to have more than one avenue for publishing and marketing their work, in order to remain versatile and flexible as the publishing environment adapts to many changes. The best bets will be to use apps, maybe a website and subscriptions to expand on the printed material currently at the core of publishing. Selling Apps through companies like Apple (IOS) and google (Android) might allow smaller publishers to go with the currents without loosing too much energy and taking too many risks trying to reinvent the wheel on their own, and without needing to give up the existing market for printed books.
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Post by nickhunt on Mar 27, 2013 7:45:06 GMT -8
Nick, I don't know why the app model didn't occur to me before, but I absolutely agree that that format would be the a fantastic fit for FOTH. I've also used a number of textbook/fieldguide/magazine apps before on an iPad, and it's always been an enjoyable experience. Thanks for clarifying!
-Nick #2
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Post by nicklyle on Mar 27, 2013 9:58:53 GMT -8
One way to accomplish this goal of keeping Mountaineers texts and published guides fresh and ever-renewing will be to have some elements that are updated regularly. Some of this material might benefit from having the character of a journal, and might be more engaging if it manages to convey a sense of immediacy which might, in part, be achieved by having this material convey a sense of the club activities. This would need to be done with a light touch. If it degrades into self-promotional drivel it would backfire. This kind of journalism is best written by climbers, not by PR types (nor by PR types who happen to be climbers). It would need editing for style. With these cautions, I think there is a place for the real live club to have more of a presence in the text(s) that we publish. One way to achieve this will be to include video-based material based on climbs by club members.
I would also like to see video and text that conveyed a sense of being on a real climb, and conveyed a sense of the Specific cascades mountain environment, putting the close-ups of action in the bigger context of the mountain range and the living environment. This sense of the teaching of climbing being an ongoing, living, evolving enterprise will be part of what keeps a multi-media background to our publications fresh and valuable (causing people to pay for it). A lot of magazines are trying to jazz themselves up with this kind of multi-media and web-based extras, but I find them hard to identify with because they are still coming from an emphasis on advertising and too heavy a focus on the daring exploits of top athletes. The point of clubs like the mountaineers is teaching more ordinary mortals how to experience the freedom of th hills. I think this is the traditional strength of our club and it's publications, and can only be enhanced by deepening it thus.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Mar 28, 2013 10:01:11 GMT -8
Great thread! I look forward to the app(s). I will store it on my IPOD or smart phone and bring it with me on all of my climbs, instructional field trips and lectures, not to mention using it for trip planning. Everything I want to know within the reach of my finger tips, including the opportunity to publish my trip reports as I go in real time, complete with photos, comments, topos and GPS waypoints.
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dougcanfield
new member
Mountaineers Books, Director, Sales & Marketing
Posts: 7
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Post by dougcanfield on Apr 3, 2013 8:12:04 GMT -8
I mentioned this in another thread, but the app model is a little scary for publishers because apps are device (operating system) specific which the publisher doesn't control. Once you make an IOS app, for example, you have to keep updating it along with the operating system. Apps are more of a software business model than book publishing, which thrives on creating all-new products rather than doing continual updates of individual products. Apps work for productivity software such as Windows and Word that sell in the millions and millions of units and lock in a user group, but most books sell in just the low thousands, if that, and the majority of those who buy an old book edition don't buy the new edition. Mountaineers Books is open -- and anxious to hear -- all creative ideas this group comes up. In addition, book publishing is an industry in search of an updated business model. But I'm wary of apps, which haven't worked well so far for book publishers. Web-based content is another story -- not device dependent -- but in an outdoors context, web connections are easy to access from remote locations. Of course, static ebook content is ever present on a mobile device and currently being produced for all the book published by MB.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Apr 4, 2013 11:20:00 GMT -8
I think that the ideal would be to offer the app as an optional supplement to text and the ebook. The app would be designed in such as way as to link important parts of the book to to supplementary information. The app would include material that doesn't fit well in a book; for example course syllabi, gear lists and lots of other material that now appears in course manuals. The app could also provide a convenient (resource center) link to Mountaineers' instructional videos, climbing related websites, climbing guides (such as the basic and intermediate climbs guides), trip reports, etc. It would make accessing the Mountaineers' website easier for those on the go.
I think that the crux issues are: Who will write the app and who will update it ? This not a job for MB but whoever takes it on will need to work closely with MB to coordinate it with the book. I suspect that it is a new job, or a contract with someone who possesses the relevant skills. Is it economically feasible?
In terms of existing internet access: This depends on mobile phone access. Mountainous regions are generally poor or absent in coverage. The more one can carry on a device that doesn't require telephone or internet connectivity, the better. I currently carry an IPOD Touch (no connectivity except wireless). I download maps and other information (photos of pages out of climbing guides or trip reports) into the IPOD. My maps are USGS 15'. I have added a product called Bad Elf, which is a quarter-sized GPS unit that plugs into the IPOD and links the positional data to all of my stored maps and anything else that depends on positional data (e.g., compass, altimeter, Theodolite). No need for internet connectivity in the field. An app could help organize a lot of this information and make it readily available when needed. It could be a real help to trip preparation and very useful for instructors and students alike.
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dougcanfield
new member
Mountaineers Books, Director, Sales & Marketing
Posts: 7
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Post by dougcanfield on Apr 5, 2013 7:28:16 GMT -8
Whoops, typo -- meant to say that the downside to web-based content is that connectivity may not be available in the backcountry.
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Post by gregggagliardi on Apr 5, 2013 12:18:55 GMT -8
Here is a really cool climbing related app. www.rakkup.com/It is a good example of what can be done. The creator/owners' business is located in Seattle !! I think we are going to see a lot more of this sort of thing.
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Post by nicklyle on Apr 12, 2013 6:37:14 GMT -8
Where the APP model for books really works well, and is selling well too, is in field guides. I think the same will be true of trail guides and climbing guides. These remain more or less the same over time, but at the same time need continual updating to stay accurate. I suspect that many kinds of text books will also go in this direction. Publishers see writing an app style book as a lot of extra work now, because they don't know how to do it and because the software may still be cumbersome. Before long it will merge with the software used to prepare for print, publishing professionals will learn how to do it, and will start to grasp that updating an app can become a time saver in the long run. Reworking an entire text for the new edition is not a quick and cheap process either. At some point the problem of too many operating systems and platforms should be solved by arriving at some common basis for such publications. Adobe InDesign is trying to get there.
In the short term I think experimenting with an APP as a supplement to the print edition is an excellent idea. The app could contain multi media support for the text. Another idea would be to post multi-media enhancements to the print text on a web site and work with others to provide apps that allow the web-based material, and/or ebook editions of the print text, to be downloaded to various devices.
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Post by andrea laue on Apr 28, 2013 6:45:53 GMT -8
Great thread. It's exciting to hear (read) of the ways in which FOTH might grow in a digital environment. Sorry to join late, but I think I might have some value to add to the process.
Have you considered the ePub approach? Traditionally (if I can use that word in this context), people have thought of ePubs as ebooks. Really, ePub is a versatile publishing format that allows one to reach users on a variety of devices and that can be read online or offline. ePub offers lots of options for multimedia as well. While book people were very involved in the creation of the ePub standard, so were magazine and multimedia folks. The use of "pub" instead of "book" is intentional. It has been designed to address a wide variety of use cases within the publishing industry.
ePub 3.0 uses HTML5 as its content standard, and the ePub implementation allows you to build electronic publications that adapt to online and offline environments. Additionally, the fact that ePub 3.0 uses HTML5 offers the potential to align your epub products with web sites product. While the HTML used in your ePubs might not always align precisely with that used on your site, it might, or it might not diverge too greatly.
If a goal is to grow the product via a more continuous publication (update) cycle, and perhaps even to admit user-generated content, then it's important that the product strategy is aligned with the production strategy. Creating silos of content for different devices will leave the Mountaineers and Mountaineers Books with an unmaintainable product. A strategy that involves ePub mitigates this risk because the core content is modeled in a common and multi-purpose format.
So, in short, I would argue that ePub 3.0 might offer the tools needed to build the desired product and to deliver that product on all target channels while also accommodating a maintainable production workflow.
I would second those arguments against apps for reasons already stated--device dependency, version management, upgrade cycles, etc. Many publishers are already moving to "mobile optimized" or HTML5 sites instead of apps.
My two cents, Andrea
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