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Post by kensmall on May 3, 2013 11:56:57 GMT -8
Drop the snow bollard. It's slow and labor intensive and of questionable reliability. And what would you do if you had to rappel 400' of 50 degree snow? Has anybody ever practiced putting in a snow bollard on steep snow? Furthermore, you can dead-man just about anything and create a reliable anchor (though admittedly a peanut butter-and-jelly sandwich is pushing it). I've rapelled off a dead-manned rock, initially placed by a pro guide, then dug up to see what it was and re-dead-manned. Pickets are the most obvious choice (so what if a piece of group gear costs a few bucks?) and should be carried when on snow where a rappel is a possibility. A full water bottle works well, even a bunch of wadded up slings works.
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Post by jimnelson on May 3, 2013 16:07:04 GMT -8
Not sure how I feel about dropping the snow bollard, but maybe give it less space than your buried rocks, water bottle, slings, etc. suggestion, which I think is more useful.
I can't remember ever rappelling from a snow bollard, but buried gear yes. Mostly rocks, but I love some of Ken's suggestions. It would be great to hear from others.
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Post by gregggagliardi on May 6, 2013 10:33:21 GMT -8
Plastic grocery shopping bags work well. Fill them with snow and bury them. Stomp the area to work harden the snow. Insert through the plastic handles on two such buried bags in vertical series a short piece of cord in a sliding X configuration Run the rope thru the cord and rappel. Four bags ought to get you down that steep 400 foot slope. When you are not using them as rappel anchors, you can use them to secure your tent or store your garbage. They are exceptionally light weight and surprisingly strong; you can carry a dozen wadded up about the size of a baseball. I began using them to secure tents in the snow some years ago. They set up like concrete. Not very good for the environment, however, as that plastic takes eons to disintegrate.
I too have never rapped on a snow bollard except on field trips. Given Ken's scenario I might be inclined to build a sturdy snow anchor with two pickets and lower a member of the climbing team as far as the rope(s) will allow passing the connecting knot past the belay if there is a knot. The next team member(s) rap the line, passing the knot(s) if two or more ropes are connected. The last one rapping pounds a few mid-clipped vertical pickets on the way down. The top belayer (last climber down) down climbs on belay from below, removing the protection. Two ropes will get you nearly 400 feet. Inexperienced climbers can be lowered to the bottom and the rope hauled back up for the next lower as long as the top belayer knows how to pass the knot on the lower. The only gear required is ice axes and pickets, leaving no trace. For two two-person rope teams on steep snow you will probably be carrying 2 tools and two pickets each. That's 16 potential pieces of pro. If everyone keeps one tool for personal protection that leaves 12 more for anchors and protecting the down climb.
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Post by nicklyle on May 17, 2013 16:40:21 GMT -8
Bollards are a good technique to know. The rest of my comments on this topic belong in section 10 and have been re-located there.
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Post by jasonmartin on May 27, 2013 8:35:38 GMT -8
I've certainly rappelled off of snow bollards on a variety of steep terrain settings and in some cases many times in a row. I think it would be a mistake to remove this vital technique.
Yes, these can be labor intensive in soft snow because they have to be so big. However, in "real-life" on neve it is easy to make smaller ones.
In order to make sure that the bollard is solid, you can back up the first person to rappel with a different type of anchor. In other words, you can place a picket and clip it loosely to the bollard while the first person -- often the heavier person -- raps the line. If all goes well, it's reasonable to believe that the second, lighter person, should be able to rappel without fear of anchor failure.
I use this anchor back-up technique in a number of alpine environments where there are sketchy anchors...
Jason
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Post by gregggagliardi on May 28, 2013 14:37:01 GMT -8
If the bollard is sketchy, could use the back-up for everyone but the last lightest climber who raps without a pack. First climber could rap with two packs, thereby providing a very strong test of the bollard.
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Post by kensmall on Jun 23, 2013 13:01:10 GMT -8
I recant. At a field trip yesterday, we had 3 students take about 15 minutes to set up a much smaller bollard than we have students practice with at the usual late April and early May field trips -- about 4.5 feet across and it probably could have been much smaller, since 6 people could not make it fail; and it was not padded in any way. The snow was moderately firm, not super-hard. This Saturday I may be able to experiment with a smaller bollard on at least 40 degree snow. Anyway, it should be kept in FOTH.
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